So I don't think there's ever really an ideal time to do in EVP project, because the ideal time would be when everything's going perfectly and everybody's happy and there's no major changes happening. But that's not the reality of what really happens in the world of business. And you're often trying to do an EVP in this dynamic environment where things are changing.

And those changes might bring some challenges to people, as well as bringing some attractions, you know. So, for example, if you're going through a big restructure, that's not a lot of fun and it's bringing a lot of change and it's bringing a lot of stress, but it's also bringing a lot of opportunity for people who want to make changes.

This is quite exciting. And so I think what you always need to do is talk honestly about the situation you're in and balance out those, you know, a realistic picture of the drawbacks with that authentic picture. But here's what the opportunity there for is for you. We quite often end up doing something in this circumstance that we tend to call a manifesto EVP, which is, we say to people, why don't you talk about where you're going and why someone might want to come with you on that journey.

So rather than saying, this is how things are right now, you say, we're going over here. This is what it'll be like when we get there. Do you want to help us get that? And that often works really well.